The Social Studies Corner

wow.. i would not agree with it at all because liek what leroy said in his first post, people would take advantage and people then would not work making those workin feel more pressurised as they had to work harder then before. Lastly, as you know singaporeans are so 'kiasu', they would even be more kiasu' if singapore were to be a welfare state.
 

Yar.. like what jackie had said.. why bring repeat history when it has already failed before.. it might seem that it is a success in the beginning but in the end it will not work at all in my point of view..
 

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ok, i think its time for someone to be FOR THE WELFARE STATE haha.

Anyway, look at it this way, if Singapore has a thriving economy , should not the government give at least some of it back to the people ?

After all, it is the people who had made the thriving economy possible. Take for example recent examples, the Progress Package. Is this not deemed welfare ? Perhaps the papers placed it as the government distributing money, but is this not in one way or another WELFARE ?

So, a welfare state need not necessarily mean welfare everyday, but it can be when the economy is good above a certain level. The people shall get its returns.

Agree ?
 

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Some of the previous posts are like good examples from the textbook.

Come on, times have changed, lets think further. Haha
 

Can Welfare State be a modified version than the one in Britain? Is subsidised health care, subsidised education and subsidised housing in a way welfarism? Is it possible to have welfare facilities only for those staying in a specific form of housing e.g. HDB 3 room or low income? Something to ponder.
 

to jackie :

i said that the economy is thriving but that does not necessarily mean that everybody is getting the fruits of it . The rich may be getting all the benefits with their investments and all that, but what do the lower income get ? Might as well be equal to all, and distribute the "welfare" accordingly.
 

I know some of you guys mentioned about implementing criteria. However, we must think for those who are just slightly over qualified for the criteria as well of those who do not qualify.

If all welfare is going to those applicable in the criteria, wont the rest who are not getting anything be not fair ?

Come on, its as simple like this, your neighbour is earning less than you by about $100. But you have 2 kids and he has none. Criteria is going to be based on the income. But you will not be applicable as you have "earned more" but now have more mouths to feed.

Therefore, i believe the criteria system of a welfare state is not just in its actions.
 

Furthermore, if we are going to have all this criteria, there is going to be alot of red tape . Red tape means a lot of paper work and regulations to go through ( if i am not wrong ).

Then the welfare that is going to those in need is going to take a long time. We might as well give out money like the Singapore Shares when the economy is thriving.

This would ensure that the people are not overly reliant on the government but they still have the basic welfare especially when the economy is good.
 

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

S'pore won't be able to progress if it is going to be a welfare state!!!
If s'pore becomes a welfare state, the citizens will be like British when they have welfare state.
 

come on guys, lets set the record straight...

we are not setting up a welfare state like what Britain had done as we know the after effects...but what is preventing us into looking the possiblities of a modified welfare state .

For eg. when the country prospers or has a strong economy which is beyond expecations, the government can give money back to the people in term of welfare .

Is this not considered welfare by the state to the people ?
 

from what i have noticed, many people said the welfare system...i assume that they are talking about the one that was implemented in britain .

I believe, if there is a modified welfare state in singapore where welfare bonuses such as the progress package or singapore shares when the economy is above expectations or performing exceptional well, Singaporeans will not be able to abuse the welfare system.

Of course, there is also the criteria system like some of the previous posts said. That is a good idea, but which will have both good and bad after effects.
 

when i say more paper work is that with the criteria system, welfare will get to the people in a much longer period of time as there must be stringnet checks to ensure that the family or person is really eligible for welfare by the government.

hence what i meant by the increase in paperwork.
 

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to xinli :

precisely what i meant to jie ying.
if now the criteria had guidelines to include assets, number of children, whether parents are staying with you...all these will add to even more of the paper work process...

hence my idea that singapore should have a modified welfare state where the gov. gives back to all the citizens when the economy is performing above standards or exceptionally well.
 

I agree to a modified welfare state in spore.

I think that this welfare state should help the needy people in spore. E.g. elderly who are ill and struggling to survive economically. They need to depend on the government, as they are too weak to work. We cannot expect them to work and support themselves. Moreover, they did contribute to the country when they are still young and healthy.

By setting criteria and rules, the people will not be able to take advantage. This welfare state does not=British welfare state, but a 'new version' welfare state.
 

the government is indeed helping the needys like setting up family centre.however,is it enough?is the government doing enough?most of the organisation are private.

of course,the government cannot help all the needys in spore as it require a hugh sum of money.but they can try their best to help the people.
 

well after briefly skimming through all the posts...I have two thoughts still lingering in my mind...i can't decide on whether should singapore become a welfare state//..
well..you see...singaporeans are known to be those typical 'kisaus'
some of them might make use of this benefit to their advantage ..But by doing this, they will be using up the money needed by those really poor families.
 

but then ...if i agree that singapore should not become a welfare state..who would be there to help those needies....
singaporeans perhaps are becoming more protective of their own, care about their own only interest....etc: if one day..you're in need..and all ur friends and relatives all have this mindset. who would help yOu then. thus, if singapore becomes a welfare state, 'she 'would be able to help you.
 

the british welfare state was created to provide a carefully selected number of people with a subsistence level of benefits in order to alleviate poverty, but that it has been overly expanded to provide a large number of people indiscriminately with more money than the country can afford.SO I think welfare state is not a good idea.
 

But, with a modified version, ( just like what mr sulaiman and Justin mention: about modified welfare state) it might work. Furthermore, there are still countries like Denmark … With welfare state. If welfare state is not good, why there still countries having welfare state.
 

And I olso think that countries with higher welfare spending do not generally do better or worse than countries which have less welfare spending. So it is not a bad idea
 

I think welfare state is not good as the social spending reduces the freedom of wealthy individuals by transferring some of their wealth to others poor people. To me I think it is not fair.
In a welfare state, the poor and lower-middle classes receive certain services free of charge, whereas in non-welfare states they would have to pay for those services, and could possibly not be able to afford them.
 

the welfare state will results in high taxes. This is true, as evidenced by places like Denmark (tax level at 50.4% of GDP in 2002) and swenden (tax level at 50.3% of GDP in 2002). However, these countries also have high wages economies and high taxes do not necessarily result in poor economic performance.
 

I think singapore can have a welfare state as long as it dose not like British welfare state and The idea of the "welfare state" means different things in different countries . so , with modified welfare state in singapore, it would benefit the country and poor people.
 

ok ok..here are some answers to those who feedbacked.

ok lets look at it this way...if the economy was bad, would the government be able to afford to give welfare to the people ? .

Let's talk about extreme cases, the economy is the worst of the century, the most the gov. can do is ensure the basic necessities like food and housing are covered until the economy picks up.

If the gov. was to give out welfare during the worsened economy, WILL IT NOT PULL DOWN THE ECONOMY FURTHER ?

I am speaking about welfare at a mass scale not selected individuals.
 

To xinli :

people can lie about their family assets. I read about this in the papers a year back or so.

Sometimes, people work sideline jobs and they dont declare these wages. Hence, they have the money, but since they have a real job which pays very little, it allows them to apply for welfare at the family centers.
 

to jie ying :

if you really want to ensure that the needy gets the welfare and that they have no hidden info, it will take time to check the applicant.

i presume that that there is no such thing as instant welfare where you just go sign a form declaring you are needy. They may be lying, or they may over qualify for welfare. Hence, if we were to talk about in a larger scale, this would significantly add to the paper work if the criteria system was set.
 

to xinli :

working out more paperwork to ensure welfare goes to right people is not wrong, but it delays the process in which welfare gets the needy.

Probably by the time the needy gets the welfare, they are in no need of it ?

Hence my arguement that Sg should become a welfare state and that the criteria system is not recommended.
 

yup agree with you xin li.

never should the welfare state incurr the people to be over dependant on the gov.

if the economy is bad, the necessary should be provided and when the economy is good above standards or exceptional well, welfare should be given to everybody ?

hmm...seems like a summary of what i said haha..
 

to jing mei :

i think that the welfare state need not mean higher taxes.

welfare can come from the investments or income that the gov. have done, and split equally amongst the people.

hence, no need for an increase in taxes and welfare is still given to the people.
 

xinli, your point may be true that the organisation can check the bank accounts all these...

but if i am not wrong, what is held in the bank accounts are deemed private and cannot be accessed by anyone else except the owner without consent.

example is like a swiss bank account where it is totally private and no gov. agency can access it. ( if i am not wrong )
 

to xinli : the number of children is difficult to lie and i believe only the super swindlers know how...haha...

perhaps there are other ways but i dont know yet....

but i do not think that is a strong point in the argument for applying for welfare in singapore.
 

to xinli :

yes perhaps we can be proud of the technology that sg has that allows the speedy process of welfare applications... but if you want to ensure a person is truly entitled for welfare, will you not need background checks and info for other organisations who might delay the process in entirely ?
 

yes agreeable with your point.

but none the less slow welfare to specific groups over quicker welfare.

case closed.
 

i agree with hong hui and leroy. if singapore become a welfare state den i think there will b a high percentage of people that are b jobless. this is not because the government force them to retire but they quit their job. they know that the government will b looking after them so they will chose not to work as they find no logic : all those people hu are unemployed are getting paid more than those people who are working.
 

NONONONO. NO! wait. stop my insanity here. ok let me start.

Welfare state in Singapore. That's immpossible in my point of view. I agree with leroy's view too. Singaporeans are just too kiasu. anything free they will just accept. A typical singaporean. If singapore turn into a welfare it would be chaos. Low wage workers like the cleaners will start to resign. They rather sit at home and get help from the goverment which may be equvilant to their pay. So i dun think this will work in Singapore. I dun think we should become a welfare state too.

'hawKS- benghock*
 

Hmm. from the look of the top comments, everyone is disagreeing on singapore becoming a welfare state. Maybe Singapore cant become a Full Welfare state. Maybe a Welfare state where all people could be provided with welfare service if they are in a special problem. Example: they are handicapped. Or Ophans. People who are totally hopeless. Senior citizen who got abandon by their children. examples like this. People who still can work should continue to work. I think this would be the idea Welfare state.

'hawKS- benghock*
 

Ya , I agreed that a welfare state in Singapore is not equivalent to the British welfare state. But the two words ‘welfare state’ is so misleading.
 

Actually, I felt that even if a welfare state in Singapore is similar to the british welfare state, people would not just sit at home and shake their legs. Cos, nowadays, People are more ambitious and have more cravings for materialistic desires, they would not be contended by that paltry sum of ‘fees’ given to them by the government. They would want to work hard so that they could acquire more money to satisfy their desires
 

i also think that our country’s current welfare system is quite good, so I felt that there is no need for Singapore to adopt a similar state as the british welfare state, or to make our current welfare benefits more prominent.
 

like what theng ong has said; the government have already introduce many packages in the past and now to help family tide over difficult periods, or just to share with the people, singapore’s success. Which mean we have a rather good welfare system already.
 

Just look at the recent Progress package, it not only help certain families to meet ends meet, but also encouraged the thought that; the country did not forget the people efforts and the people will be awarded for their hard work. It did bring little perks to the people in Singapore. Showing that welfare in Singapore not only takes care of the people financially, but also mentally.

For people who are really in dire state, when even ERS, NSS did not help much (eg. People who are down with illnesses, etc). There are charity organizations (eg. The children’s foundation, the cancer foundation, etc) to help these people. These charity foundations help the needy people raise huge funds through charity shows and charity campaign.
 

Overall , Singapore’s welfare system is quite good , there is no need for Singapore to adopt a similar state as the british welfare state, or to make our current welfare benefits more prominent.
 

Actually,i agree with what Joyce and Joseph said.S'poreans are very kiasu, and no amount of money is enough to them.
 

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But,for the welfare state, i think only the poorer families will take total advantage of it.The rich won't really take advantage of it.That's bcos they don't need help financially.furthermore, if they're going to take advantage of it, they won't want to. BECAUSE THEIR FACE AND STATUS ARE GOING TO DROOP IF THEY DO IT!!!
 

Okay, now about the modified welfare state. well, i agree.This is workable.But how is it going to be modified is a real question.
Like what most will say,modify it such that people can't take total advantage of it. Yah, LIMITATIONS...
 

I agree with what joyce say about Singapore's welfare system is quite good , and there it is not a need for Singapore to adopt a similar state as the British welfare state, or to make our current welfare benefits more prominent. Furthermore I don't think that Singapore really need welfare state to help them.
 

i agree s'pore being partly a welfare state where the government could give free services in some areas.like wat adeline say,these are small advantages for the ppl, not allowing them to take things for granted easily.
 

i also agree with zhiyue if s'pore is a welfare state people would not just sit at home and shake their legs. Cos, nowadays, People are more ambitious and have more cravings for materialistic desires, they would not be contended by that paltry sum of‘fees’ given to them by the government.

however,there will be people who lie about their monthly income,thus able to take advantage of the small fees although they are not qualify for it.
 

The main idea of welfare state is to help the poor and needy people, but Singapore already had so many packages to help them. So I think it is not a need to have the welfare state.
 

Does Singapore really need a welfare state?
No , I don’t think so.
It is because Singapore has only a small population that is poor who need government to help them. Furthermore, Singapore government done a lot of things to help them like financial assistance …
 

Agree with Adeline: We should not rely on the government or anyone . . .
If everyone encounter some problem and always rely on gov, they will not become independent. This will lead to Singapore very difficult to progress .
 

From my own point of view Singapore should never become a welfare state.
Why do I say so? Singapore curently needs to survive and progress as a nation through taxes such as the GST to fund the various ministries and Research & Development sectors to progress and continue to be one of the most advanced and developed country in SEA.
 

In addition:
If this were to be revered, instead of government getting contributions from us, to become we getting funds in one way or another from the government, our country would be greatly disadvantaged.
 

I disagree totally with Farahin on her second post at 1.45am and also Adeline who supported her.

It will be totally disastrous if you were to allow the welfare state idea to be implemented under the sector of health care.

It is known to everyone that Singapore healthcare industry is one of the leading industries in SEA. By allowing free healthcare, the servicemen who are in this industry will be to a disadvantage as their salary would be affected greatly.

For example in a private dental clinics, these clinics is not owned by the government and in which if it were to be forced into giving free healthcare services, where do you think they will get their salary from? Moreover, 50% of the patients are formed by children under the age of 12.
 

I would suggest not free service but a concession should be implemented for the welfare of the people and the country.
 

i agree welfare state is needed to help the people only in some of the areas, such as the health. like what reena said the cost of medical treatment are getting higher and more people such as the elderly are not able to afford it.
however like what yunti said,will it encourage more people(i dont think the elderly will be encourage) to fall sick since they dont feel the pain of parting with their money?or they already feels the pain when struggling with the illness?
 

leroy, purposely become poor?...how is it possible?..
okie nvmx..anyway.. agree with reena of having the welfare state implemented under the health sector. As the cost of medical treatment is getting more expensive day by day, ..well i think singapore should not become a welfare state. but instead provides the people with help in the health sector?. perhaps lower the cost of medical by subsidising part of it..For those who can afford, they have to pay the full amount..
 

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well, to add on, some might mentioned..wel.. those who pay the full sum might feel unfair? will then try and think of ways to can't afford it?..well...i think in order to receive the subsidy, whoever goes to the government health services will have to produce their total family income, and from there deduce whethere they can apply for subsidy.
 

well...regarding about rentro and xin li, the computer thing that they were arguing..well..i think rentro sentence make sense..well..he is an example of someone reeiving finanical help..so its easier for him to understand those pple who receve help to...going to the library to use the internet services is definitely more expensive comparing to having a computer at home...[ looking at the long term effects ]
 

I would agree with rentro on the computer thing. Internet at the library is far more expensive than what u pay for internet at home. In addition, it's far more inconvinant. Like what Xinli says, we got school labs? but it will still be inconvinant. Xinli, imagine u do not have a computer, and you want to check what the holiday homework. Will you change to your school uniform and walk all the way to school. In my case, if i do not have a computer, you are saying i need to take an hour ride down just to use the computers in the labs for that little while? no offence though. I'm just thinking IT is becoming a need than a want in this modern society. Just my point of view.

'hawKS- benghock*
 

About the point justin saying about the $100 difference. It's really unfair, It's already happening now though. Actually, now singapore can be called a the welfare state that we mention. The modified version. It's happening. Only that maybe in a welfare state like britain, the goverment will go around finding people to help. Only that now, those needy still need to find the mp to help them. There are still criterias. Examples, one of my relative who is a single parent couldnt get the subside because her pay was over by just abit. They didnt even check the mouths she had to feed. Which was totally unfair. Yup, the goverment should take this into consideration.

'hawKS- benghock*
 

Erm,Ee may,i think it's not possible to extend free dental healthcheck to every household. the govn don't have that much $$.
 

Unless u set up criteria.only let the lower income pple to have those priviledges. Yah, and oso those elderly lah... (>_<)
 

the government do not hav so much money?? ermx.. abt that point.. i dun quite agree because all the things that we buy.. we hav to pay the tax. and all the tax all go to the government so i dun think he do not have the money.
 

but i agree wif waranya abt setting up criteria amd giving priviledges to the lower income family so that they can catch up with the modern society. and if life were to be like this there would not be any poor people anymore, wun it?? =)
 

but reena the textbook states that a welfare state will take care of everything and mr sulaiman also giv an example that if a person is out of job the government will take care of them by giving them money. so in this case, what i m refering to is that if singapore were to become a welfare state, more and more people will not want to work as they can get money by just sitting at home. therefore in short more shop will close down instead of opening up.
 

yes i agree with waranaya thati think 'it's not possible to extend free dental healthcheck to every household. the govn don't have that much $$.' (the need the $$ for others more important thinks)

yah i also agree tat only the lower income and the elderly should hav these priviledges(cos the more well-off ones such can offord)
 

Comments on reena post on free dental for all. Getting their salary from? Of cause the goverment. And their salary will not drop, In fact they will even earn much more. So about the money part, it's not a problem. Maybe free things like dental should be still given to all singaporeans. But to a centain limit. Like once every 6 months, you cant expect a person to go everyday? This would be stated as what reena has stated 'misuse this privillage given' So maybe some privillages could still be given, for all singaporean to have better teeth in this example. But too a centain extent. Not too deep as in surgery like the british welfare state, or people will really take advantage on. So in my point of view, free privillages could still be given.

'hawKS- benghock*
 

ya.. xinli.. mayb u are rite.. but den like wat Jackie mentioned so long ago...haha technically...Why let history repeat itself if we can learn from it?
 

i agree to brian's last comment.. The people do not have to work hard at all because they can rely all on the welfare state because they do not have to do anything much.. On top of that they will become lazy and will cause s'pore's economy to drop.
 

Therefore, i agree that we should rather not let history repeat itself. So, i suggest that s'pore should not be welfare state because the people will not be hardworking and in return will cause a downfall in s'pore's economy.
 

Lastly, i guess that s'pore should stay as what it is today because this is the only way s'pore cn strive as a nation and can be successful this way.. :)
 

first of all i dun think that becoming a welfare state is such a gd idea...we saw what it did to the british n i dun think i want us singaporens to be like them...ever...i mean if we do become a welfare state i dun think some of the youth wld want to study...so it definately isnt a great idea...i mean whats the point of studying then...we wldnt need to work to make a living...
 

well...firstly as many wld not want to work there wld be a shortage of labour which wld lead to bad service...as they get overworked n stressed-up...n then they wld also eventually stop working...
 

another reason is that those who work would have to pay more taxes to support the welfare of those living off it..

with people not working and studying up to their potential and doing only their bare minimum, not upgrading their skills to meet the moving economy. singapore wld eventually lag behind other countries even those who are supposedly not as good as us. and singapore wld lose our status as a top asian country.
 

if singapore were a welfare state, we wldnt be such a wealthy state that we are now. the cash we have in our reserves have helped tide singapore through the economic crisis. that is the reason why singapore wasnt as badly hit by the economic downturn as compared to other asian countries.
 

i think when u people talk abt having a modified welfare state. it shldnt be juz abt helping the poor and giving them privileges and money etc. it shld be more abt helping people to help themselves. in the sense that the gov help the unemployed to upgrade and helping them find jobs, not juz giving them money.
education is one way to help. providing a good education to the children of the poor wld help them get out of the poverty cycle.